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Why... Heaven?
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digging
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Post: #31
RE: Why... Heaven?

Here is a very good vs that points to Gods power to clearly keep anything from wearing our if he so wants.

Deut 29:5 "I have led you forty years in the wilderness ; your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandal has not worn out on your foot."

If he can keep cloths from wearing out he can keep people and even the sun from wearing out.

Here is another nice vs. Romans 8:23
"And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body."

Our flesh, our body.

As for the vs you refered to about the house of God that scripture is a perfect example of one of the few that is misused to try and paint the 'going to heaven' belief.

I feel very strongly that Christianity has failed seriously over this teaching. Because of this belief 99.9% of Christians think they can just go on living in a destuctive way on the earth because they don't have to worry they will be raptured up to heaven!! It doesn't matter the water is polluted, the oceans are dying, the air is polluted, the soil is blowing away, species are being lost every day.

All what God created for us to enjoy life on this beautiful earth, it's NOT enough, we want to go to Heaven and be like God.......

I've spent months studying on this topic and I am 100% certain the earth is the beautiful gift God is offering us.

It's a false creed plain and simple.



Digging

07-19-2011 06:58 PM
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Post: #32
RE: Why... Heaven?

Hi Brian

I meant to reply to you a few days ago, but I closed the browser tab and lost my reply... and couldn't be bothered to type it all up again :)

I recently read a fascinating book: "Heaven Is for Real: A Little Boy's Astounding Story of His Trip to Heaven and Back". Worth a read. Very eye-opening. I wrote a mini review for you, but now... mehhh... look it up on Amazon ;)

I really don't think the laws of physics are too much of a problem for God. I don't think that's a sound basis for dismissing the idea of an eternally enduring Earth.

However, one thing we can scripturally say, is that the Bible consistently talks about the old heavens and earth passing away, to be replaced by new heavens and new earth. This passage in 2 Peter is pretty intriguing:

"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." (2 Peter 3:10 ESV)

Now, the way it's translated here implies it might be spiritual, but who knows for certain? Maybe God does intend to actually dissolve the physical Universe and replace it. Either way, it's new heavens and new earth... so just as we talk about "New Jerusalem" as a reality, even though there's a lot of debate about precisely what it is... it's fair to say there WILL be a "New Earth".

Whether it's merely old Earth renewed, or the entire Universe dissolved and refashioned, it seems Scripture allows for both possibilities.

Also, if we're all Heaven bound, why the need for "New Earth"?

Besides, as a science fiction fan, maybe we've misinterpreted the meaning of heaven anyway. Maybe it IS just outer space.

And on that note... one series of science fiction books I think you'd enjoy is the Hyperion cantos, starting with "Hyperion" and "The Fall Of Hyperion", by Dan Simmons.

There are some fascinating religious ideas in there. I think you will enjoy them, especially "The Fall Of Hyperion" which blew me away.

Anyway, back on topic...

Brian Wrote:
Perhaps, just perhaps God doesn't want the earth to exists forever and therefore some other abode in going to be needed. I wonder why there are so many abodes in Jesus Fathers house.


I refer the right honourable gentleman to the "New Earth" reply I gave a moment ago.

Besides, Jesus said there are "many" abodes. How many are "many"? It could be as little as maybe 3 or 4, and I suppose it could stretch almost to infinity.

Interestingly, Revelation (which is itself somewhat ambiguous about all this) suggests 144,000 on "Mount Zion" (the location of the Temple in former times). Many indeed, but still limited in number.

On the other hand, in the throne scene in Revelation 4, we're told of 1,000 x 1,000 (1 million)... and 10,000 x 10,000 (i.e. 100 million) angels around God's throne.


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07-19-2011 07:06 PM
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Post: #33
RE: Why... Heaven?

Hi Digging

digging Wrote:
Here is a very good vs that points to Gods power to clearly keep anything from wearing our if he so wants.

Deut 29:5 "I have led you forty years in the wilderness ; your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandal has not worn out on your foot."

If he can keep cloths from wearing out he can keep people and even the sun from wearing out.


Absolutely. If Jehovah is the Source of all the energy and matter in the Universe, then it is surely a simple thing for him to renew those things from time to time.

Maybe it will involve a Day Of Maintenance, where He has to get in a gang of angels to replace the Sun (cash in hand)... or just maybe God can do these things in the twinkling of an eye. My money's on the second one.

Quote:
All what God created for us to enjoy life on this beautiful earth, it's NOT enough, we want to go to Heaven and be like God.......

I've spent months studying on this topic and I am 100% certain the earth is the beautiful gift God is offering us.

It's a false creed plain and simple.


I am inclined to agree.

Although I will add one "But".

It does seem that some were/are destined for heaven. There's a lot of "Come on up here!" themes in the Bible, i.e. Jesus going to heaven, Paul talking about meeting the Lord in the air and being with Christ, the "two witnesses" and the voice calling them up to heaven... and then, finally, New Jerusalem coming DOWN out of Heaven.

The impression I get is of a dynamic process, where Heaven and Earth are related. I guess it starts with Jacob's ladder, with God stationed at the top, and angels ascending and descending!

Jesus gathered a crop of "firstfruits" to follow him WHEREVER he goes (implying not just heaven), but for everybody else, it's... "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on... that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!" (Rev 14:13)

JWs believe this "firstfruits" crop has been gathered over the past 2,000 years and is still going on. I believe that firstfruits crop was gathered in the 1st century and in heaven, with all other Christians from that time falling into the category of Rev 14:13, that of RESTING from their labors.

I appreciate that's a minority opinion, but it certainly fits the spirit of Paul's letters, who in his earlier letters was convinced he probably wouldn't die without being changed and meeting the Lord in the twinkling of an eye.

Either way, I'd agree that most people are destined for life on Earth.

At least until the great Day Of Maintenance... in which Brian's worst nightmare comes true and the Sun burns out. ;)


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07-19-2011 07:23 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #34
RE: Why... Heaven?

Interpretum Wrote:
Hi Digging

digging Wrote:
Here is a very good vs that points to Gods power to clearly keep anything from wearing our if he so wants.

Deut 29:5 "I have led you forty years in the wilderness ; your clothes have not worn out on you, and your sandal has not worn out on your foot."

If he can keep cloths from wearing out he can keep people and even the sun from wearing out.


Absolutely. If Jehovah is the Source of all the energy and matter in the Universe, then it is surely a simple thing for him to renew those things from time to time.

Maybe it will involve a Day Of Maintenance, where He has to get in a gang of angels to replace the Sun (cash in hand)... or just maybe God can do these things in the twinkling of an eye. My money's on the second one.

Quote:
All what God created for us to enjoy life on this beautiful earth, it's NOT enough, we want to go to Heaven and be like God.......

I've spent months studying on this topic and I am 100% certain the earth is the beautiful gift God is offering us.

It's a false creed plain and simple.


I am inclined to agree.

Although I will add one "But".

It does seem that some were/are destined for heaven. There's a lot of "Come on up here!" themes in the Bible, i.e. Jesus going to heaven, Paul talking about meeting the Lord in the air and being with Christ, the "two witnesses" and the voice calling them up to heaven... and then, finally, New Jerusalem coming DOWN out of Heaven.

The impression I get is of a dynamic process, where Heaven and Earth are related. I guess it starts with Jacob's ladder, with God stationed at the top, and angels ascending and descending!

Jesus gathered a crop of "firstfruits" to follow him WHEREVER he goes (implying not just heaven), but for everybody else, it's... "Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on... that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow them!" (Rev 14:13)

JWs believe this "firstfruits" crop has been gathered over the past 2,000 years and is still going on. I believe that firstfruits crop was gathered in the 1st century and in heaven, with all other Christians from that time falling into the category of Rev 14:13, that of RESTING from their labors.

I appreciate that's a minority opinion, but it certainly fits the spirit of Paul's letters, who in his earlier letters was convinced he probably wouldn't die without being changed and meeting the Lord in the twinkling of an eye.

Either way, I'd agree that most people are destined for life on Earth.

At least until the great Day Of Maintenance... in which Brian's worst nightmare comes true and the Sun burns out. ;)


Its not a nightmare for me. I see the sun burning out as quite OK. As humans we think far to small. If God made them that way I doubt he will suddenly change it. More likely we will be changed rather than the universe.

07-19-2011 07:56 PM
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Post: #35
RE: Why... Heaven?

Hi Seraphim

Seraphim Wrote:
Its not a nightmare for me. I see the sun burning out as quite OK. As humans we think far to small. If God made them that way I doubt he will suddenly change it. More likely we will be changed rather than the universe.


It was a tongue-in-cheek comment... I appreciate you probably don't lie awake at night worrying about the sun's demise :)

Here's a thought, though. Did God make Satan that way? Or did he become Satan? Did he make this planet fallen... or did it become subject to the fall?

Consider this totally unscientific scripture:

"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word." (Hebrews 1:3)

Would you say scientists would agree that "all things" are sustained by God's Son?

Probably not. Truth is, no human being (scientist or otherwise) fully knows and understands the nature of God.

God is a spirit. The spirit was involved in the creation of the world. God gives his spirit, and when we die, the spirit goes back to God.

And yet, from a scientific point of view, we know nothing of this "spirit".

The Son... the glorious spirit... sustains all things... and yet we do not know HOW.

The Son violates the laws of entropy.

"You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands; they will perish, but you remain; they will all wear out like a garment, like a robe you will roll them up, like a garment they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will have no end." (Heb 1:10-12)

This is why I do not get too wrapped up in "what science says".

You said, "As humans we think far to small"... and then you will quote what science teaches.

As Isomam said, "past performance is not indicative of future results". This needs to be applied for scientists too. "The present is NOT the key to the past".

Science could theoretically understand the realm of God, if they so chose. After all, even Heaven will be subject to laws and realities that we could conceptually and mathematically grasp, even if we can't live there at present.

After all, men and angels use the same MEASUREMENTS. (See Rev 21:17). Therefore Heaven must have consistent mathematical laws, in order for angels to use the same measurements as us.

But scientists don't particularly want to get into a discussion about that, because it violates some dumb man-made "rule" about mixing religion with science.

That is not a law, or one of the ten commandments. One day, I hope some genius will figure it out.


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07-19-2011 10:00 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #36
RE: Why... Heaven?

The reason I talk about science so much is because God created it so its relevant to how God does things. However it only concerns itself with how it works whereas supernatural things don`t come under its remit. Theology on the other hand generally sees the universe and all else in terms of intentions. Science only see things in terms of descriptions. Science if you like is a subset of a greater hole. The two subjects are based on a different set of criteria so to ask a question about the spirit wont translate into science. One might say that there is what's called `zero point energy` which is the existence of energy in subatomic particles even at absolute zero. From a religious point of view that could be construed as the base sustaining power of God but science cannot see it that way, because it deals with descriptions only without intentions. The mechanism if you will as opposed to de novo out of nothing or pre-existing cause and effect. Hence science has problems with free will.

Of course it would only be a religious construe to say that zero point energy is indeed the emanation of Gods sustaining power. Its a guess that could be wrong. God may be the sustainer of all things in terms of the base foundation but that shouldn't detract from the fact that God made science which itself provides its own foundation for what we see in creation. So God may be the base ground and science a created secondary foundation. The two don't operate on the same set of rules and also it should not be forgotten that we can learn allot about God from science. He could change it if he liked but then would he? The son might violate the laws of entropy but did he really? If it was from supernatural origin and not scientific, then no violation has taken place. It was just a different foundation and set of criteria and no contradiction has taken place because the two are different games for want of a better word. At the same time God created entropy for a reason so it makes sense to think that he would not violate what he has put in place since the beginning. The practical upshot of all this is that heaven is more likely than the earth because God created it to die and for him/her to suddenly and abruptly change that raises all sorts of questions and I certainly don`t think Satan created or even affected the laws of physics. I think God did.

07-20-2011 10:10 AM
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grateful
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Post: #37
RE: Why... Heaven?

God said he would bring to ruin those ruining the earth. Is he likely to let us ignorant creatures destroy it completely, because we didn't take seriously his command to 'look after it and subdue it'? If Jahweh created all this, along with all the nuclear power contained in the heavens, then no nuclear power under man's puny intelligence, could ever eradicate or combat the incomprehensible power of Jahweh!.:thinking: Let's not forget that His ways are far higher than ours, and we should feel confident and secure that He will not permit anyone, no puny human, scientific genius or even any powerful spiritual force to go beyond what He will allow.:read:Isa 40:15,26 Ps.37:9,11
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07-20-2011 10:15 AM
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Seraphim
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Post: #38
RE: Why... Heaven?

Good comment grateful . I would also add though that God did say that `what ones sows one will also reap`. So it is possible that God could let it all go down with the ship. I'm not sure we should be so sure God wont allow the worse case scenario, because otherwise the temptation might we to not get off our own behind to make anything better because we will settle for the view that God will sort it out if it gets to bad. Perhaps, perhaps not. I guess we will be judged on what view we practically take.

07-20-2011 10:24 AM
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grateful
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Post: #39
RE: Why... Heaven?

I'm afraid if it gets so bad Seraphim, then only God will be able to resolve it.:thinking: Not us! We, as Christians, ( and all those who respect this beautiful planet, and there are many non Christians who do,) in the meantime, can only do our best to ensure that we don't aid or add to the ruination caused by ignorant individuals whose only intent is to benefit greedily from the earth's resources! What happens in the future is in God's perfectly safe hands, not ours.:thinking: Fortunately!:)
Agape,
Grateful, :giverose:

07-20-2011 11:01 AM
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Seraphim
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Post: #40
RE: Why... Heaven?

Of course but perhaps God would be pleased if we fight the bad so that he wont have to slaughter so many at Armageddon?

07-20-2011 11:07 AM
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Post: #41
RE: Why... Heaven?

Hi Seraphim

Seraphim Wrote:
God may be the sustainer of all things in terms of the base foundation but that shouldn't detract from the fact that God made science which itself provides its own foundation for what we see in creation.


Ah, I think we are confusing two things here.

God created the scientific laws that govern our universe.

However, he did not create "science". Science is simply mankind's effort to understand, decode and apply those laws.

Consider: Newton's discoveries were "science". Yet they were only approximations of reality, as proved by Einstein.

"Science" is simply a methodology of attempting to discover the laws of the universe, and that methodology has changed and evolved over time.

In other words, there is actually no reason why it needs to exclude "heaven" or "spirit". As you imply, "zero point energy" could well be an expression of spirit. If that is true, then "science" HAS found a possible mechanism for "spirit", although I wouldn't expect them to call it that.

Personally, I criticize "science" because it's often as dogmatic as religion. That's because it's done by human beings, who are themselves dogmatic, have vested interests, traditions, "tow the line" mentality, etc.

It would rather invent stuff like "dark matter" and "dark energy" to hold the universe together, rather than accept that electromagnetism can do the job far better. This is because they are steeped in the GRAVITY dogma.

All the while, God is laughing at them. To Job, he asked: ""Can you bind the chains of the Pleiades or loose the cords of Orion?" (38:31)

"Birkland currents", in a particular formation, can do exactly that. They can bind two massive entities together, in an electromagnetic bind called a "z pinch", acting like a massive CORD, immensely stronger than gravity.

Plasma science is still not yet mainstream, although because it solves many of the universe's riddles without having to invent stuff like "dark matter", "dark energy" etc I think it WILL eventually be accepted, and replace the current Big Bang theology.

A plasma beginning also ties in much more neatly with God's description of how He created the universe. The earth began "formless and void"... a pretty good description of plasma!

He created light from vibrating water... the newly discovered science of sonar luminescence.

So maybe God DID know how He created the Universe. No wonder He mocked Job about whether he could loose the cords of Orion, or bind the chains of the Pleiades. It's only recently that science has been able to get a clue about what Jehovah was even talking about... Birkeland currents act as magnetic ropes and cables!


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07-20-2011 12:56 PM
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grateful
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Post: #42
RE: Why... Heaven?

Great, Interpretum! :ok: In effect, there's nothing new under the sun, is there?!;)
Agape,
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07-20-2011 03:45 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #43
RE: Why... Heaven?

Seems very clear to me that my posts are a waste of time.

07-20-2011 05:08 PM
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Post: #44
RE: Why... Heaven?

Seraphim Wrote:
Science if you like is a subset of a greater hole.


and that about sums it up. :whistle:

th-th-th-thats all, folks. :grouphug:


Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.--1 Timothy 1:15.

Above all things, have INTENSE Love for one another.--1 Peter 4:8.

Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. ... Hold a good conscience.--1 Peter 3:15, 16.

TRUTH IS SIMPLE.
07-20-2011 07:13 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #45
RE: Why... Heaven?

What do you mean by "th-th-th-thats all, folks"??

07-20-2011 07:55 PM
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