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Why... Heaven?
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isomam
In Spite of Many and Much


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Post: #46
RE: Why... Heaven?

i was just a-funnin' with ya, brian. no offense intended. i hope none was taken.


Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners. Of these I am foremost.--1 Timothy 1:15.

Above all things, have INTENSE Love for one another.--1 Peter 4:8.

Sanctify the Christ as Lord in your hearts. ... Hold a good conscience.--1 Peter 3:15, 16.

TRUTH IS SIMPLE.
07-20-2011 08:39 PM
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Willa
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Post: #47
RE: Why... Heaven?

Brian, it's what Porky Pig said at the end of every Warner Brothers cartoon, in his cute lisp - "th-th-th-that's all folks!" It just signals the end of something, and reminds us of the funny way Porky had trouble with 'th' words, lol.

Yes, Interp - God didn't 'make' science, He did create the scientific laws which science tries to explain, without His input I might add.

I've always said that science proves God's existence - and to me it certainly does.

In their theories, He's the only variable missing. He's needed to make a theory fact - the last puzzle piece, impo.

Does God have to follow His own scientific laws? There are Bible examples where He suspended or operated outside of those laws, aren't there?

I'm not really sure what you guys are arguing about here - it's mostly over my head. Not sure, Brian, why you think posts are "a waste of time". You can't expect everyone to agree with you - but your posts are good and impo, NOT a waste if it's how you feel and think. We've all got opinions m' brother!

Carry on - with patience and love!

:D


:heartbeat: You are my friends! I don't think it just by chance, but by God's Grand Design, that He has guided both our steps... to let your paths cross mine. :heartbeat:
07-20-2011 08:59 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #48
RE: Why... Heaven?

That`s the point, its not just an opinion as to why God should not be included in science. I agree with you in as much that science can inform an opinion about God, but it certainly cant prove God or disprove him, her or them, if you see what I mean as an example, although many a Christian and atheist say it can prove it both ways. There are good practical reasons why God should definitely not be included in Science, and even scientists worth anything in their fields who are believers in God would agree with me because I agree with them. To think other wise is to seriously not understand what science is. Then for some to say that science is bad in some way for not including God is to compound ignorance with judgemental-ism. Believe me fellow believers like us who are professional scientists scratch their heads when they hear this type of thing.

The problem I have is that when logic and reason lead to a view that is not to some peoples agreement, the standard response is often a variation on `God can do anything`. At that point reason itself becomes completely superfluous and one can in fact reach any conclusion one likes no mater how illogical or at odds with the evidence. When one abandons reason, logic and evidence in favour of a `we know nothing view`, or `God can do anything` even logical impossibilities we cut the props away from any position we hold in terms of it having any support and backing from reason, logic or evidence itself. One can prove anything one likes at that point, including anther God or Gods being there, or non at all, or none and God at the same time. One can prove the earth is flat if one ignores the premise that light always travels in a straight line which is why evidence is key. Considering that arguing and debate are key to apologetics its a very serious move to abandon reason. Its not that I expect people to agree with me its that time and time again the lack of reasoning by so many Christians itself leads to sin. Rant over.

07-20-2011 10:20 PM
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Beau Wetini
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Post: #49
RE: Why... Heaven?

LOL - but thats the point, Brian.


God CAN do anything.

I know its a hard statement to grasp, but its true. He can. That's part of what makes Him God and Creator.

Sure, it can be open to misuse, but then so is every other approach.


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


07-20-2011 10:31 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #50
RE: Why... Heaven?

Beau Wetini Wrote:
LOL - but thats the point, Brian.


God CAN do anything.

I know its a hard statement to grasp, but its true. He can. That's part of what makes Him God and Creator.

Sure, it can be open to misuse, but then so is every other approach.


If God can do anything then why all the suffering? Cant use the conditional limiting factor of free will as any kind of justification for evil if God can do literally anything at all! Then what about other logical impossibility's? Can God create a mountain that only goes up and not down? Surely its better to say that God can only do what is logically possible to do, otherwise the statement that its impossible for God to lie is completely meaningless. God could reverse truth and lies any-time he wanted in order to make lies truth. Does that sound reasonable to you? The reason your statement is hard to grasp is because is requires no harmony with any kind of cognisance thus argument and debate are meaningless. If anything at all is possible then its equally possible that some nasty God who is not Yahweh faked the whole universe for sadistic reasons of their own. Its all possible! and there is no way to argue against it because we have thrown away logic and reason and all gods have an equal chance of being the true one. A high price to pay wouldn't you say?

Also you may or may not realise that if logic and reason are irrelevant to God then God is irrelevant to logic and reason. That`s what happens when God is said to be beyond such things. That also means God is irrelevant to us and anything we do because our whole existence is based on some form of logic and reason. If you make the move that both are true in terms of a logical contradiction, your back in hot water again as far as the whole relevance of evidence to anything at all, thus debate again is pointless and everyone's god is just as real as anyone else's. God is a God of truth and if that means anything at all it means God doesn't override truth, ever, and evidence and logic mean something after all.

07-21-2011 07:25 AM
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Beau Wetini
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Post: #51
RE: Why... Heaven?

woops


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


07-21-2011 07:59 AM
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Beau Wetini
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Post: #52
RE: Why... Heaven?

Seraphim Wrote:

Beau Wetini Wrote:
LOL - but thats the point, Brian.


God CAN do anything.

I know its a hard statement to grasp, but its true. He can. That's part of what makes Him God and Creator.

Sure, it can be open to misuse, but then so is every other approach.


If God can do anything then why all the suffering? Cant use the conditional limiting factor of free will as any kind of justification for evil if God can do literally anything at all! Then what about other logical impossibility's? Can God create a mountain that only goes up and not down? Surely its better to say that God can only do what is logically possible to do, otherwise the statement that its impossible for God to lie is completely meaningless. God could reverse truth and lies any-time he wanted in order to make lies truth. Does that sound reasonable to you? The reason your statement is hard to grasp is because is requires no harmony with any kind of cognisance thus argument and debate are meaningless. If anything at all is possible then its equally possible that some nasty God who is not Yahweh faked the whole universe for sadistic reasons of their own. Its all possible! and there is no way to argue against it because we have thrown away logic and reason and all gods have an equal chance of being the true one. A high price to pay wouldn't you say?

Also you may or may not realise that if logic and reason are irrelevant to God then God is irrelevant to logic and reason. That`s what happens when God is said to be beyond such things. That also means God is irrelevant to us and anything we do because our whole existence is based on some form of logic and reason. If you make the move that both are true in terms of a logical contradiction, your back in hot water again as far as the whole relevance of evidence to anything at all, thus debate again is pointless and everyone's god is just as real as anyone else's. God is a God of truth and if that means anything at all it means God doesn't override truth, ever, and evidence and logic mean something after all.



LOL - still hard to grasp, isnt it Brian?

Sure, all those things you mentioned can be thought of and justified with the pressuposition that God can do anything and that there is nothing He cant do - but one factor you didnt mention in your above post, is GOD'S WILL.

It is HIS WILL that determines what He does and does not do -- and all manner of possibilities within this spectrum are fair game for God -- I am truly in no position to frame what God can and cannot do based on systems of logic, laws of physics and man's thousands of years of scientific observation. Does God truly need to abide by these things? I truly dont think He does.


And anyway --- what it seems you are essentially saying, is that if a Christian cannot use Reason, Logic and Evidence in the way they approach reality - then they cannot possibly arrive at the Truth.

Take Evolution. With Reason, Logic and Evidence one MUST arrive at the conclusion that Evolution (from single celled organisms to life's current complexity) is an absolute Truth. Right? So without Reason, Logic and Evidence, a person will NOT likely believe in Evolution, and will dangerously abandon right thinking and move towards the fallacy of direct creation by God, or some other rubbish like that.

In fact, with Reason, Logic and Evidence, we would all pretty much arrive at exactly the same conclusions as yourself, and those who also use these things - because by using these things, there can only be a certain possible number of outcomes in each respective facet of reality.


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


07-21-2011 08:01 AM
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Beau Wetini
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Post: #53
RE: Why... Heaven?

And one more thing Brian.

Im not saying that Logic, Reason and Evidence are irrelevant to God - not at all.

What I am saying, is that people use Logic, Reason and Evidence, and they dont come to the same conclusions, and I think its dangerous to say or think that there is only "one way" to both use it, and to reach conclusions based on its use.


LOL....and then the next thing that could be said is "Yes, but your not using Logic, Reason and Evidence properly....."

To which I would reply -- LOL!


LIVE THE KINGDOM NOW!!


07-21-2011 08:10 AM
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wolfie
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Post: #54
RE: Why... Heaven?

Isn't so much of this addressed in Hebrews 11? Isn't faith the anchor
for all the logic and reasoning that one can't necessarily explain or understand...

''Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Hebrews 11:1

''This is what the ancients were commended for.'' ..2

''By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what is visible.''..3

just my opinion, of course, but living by faith means you do not have to have an answer for every question--faith carries the day :love:


''In the midst of winter I finally learned that in me there was an invincible summer.'' Albert Camus

''live simply, speak kindly, love unconditionally''
07-21-2011 08:32 AM
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wolfie
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Post: #55
RE: Why... Heaven?

So something struck me as I was reading Brain's claim that reason, logic and evidence leads people to the same conclusion--and I am thinking about a murder case that was tried here the last 2 months that has turned the country into an uproar because of a ''not guilty'' verdict that fully 2/3rd's of the country disagrees with--the ones who feel this girl is guilty feel all the logic, all the reason and all the evidence points to her killing her child and is on their side while those who don't see it that way have attached themselves to theories where there are none of those things at play--there is no evidence and it is nonlogical to those who look at it--logically-- there is no predicting how different people will interpret the very same ''evidence'' or what will resonate with everyone--what seems cut and dried to some becomes a flash point of anger for others as they consider it absurd--there seems to be no explaining the way the mind works --another mystery, perhaps....


''In the midst of winter I finally learned that in me there was an invincible summer.'' Albert Camus

''live simply, speak kindly, love unconditionally''
07-21-2011 08:53 AM
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digging
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Post: #56
RE: Why... Heaven?

Here's some reason, all through the OT the single clear hope held by believers was to live on the earth blessed by God. The teaching continues into the NT with a few vage vs's that can be read more than one way. Now we have the mayority of Christians all dismissing this hope which has many many vs's clearly explaining it, based on a couple vagely read ones. Where is the logic in that!

Digging

07-21-2011 03:11 PM
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smoldering wick
ratio est radius divini luminus


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Post: #57
RE: Why... Heaven?

Seraphim Wrote:
What do you mean by "th-th-th-thats all, folks"??

isomam Wrote:
i was just a-funnin' with ya, brian. no offense intended. i hope none was taken.

It's what Porky Pig said (with a stutter) when signing off a "Looney Tunes" cartoon.


"What cannot be understood is no object of belief.” Isaac Newton.
----------------------------------------------------------------
"The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false face for the urge to rule it.” H. L. Mencken
07-21-2011 04:35 PM
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smoldering wick
ratio est radius divini luminus


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Post: #58
RE: Why... Heaven?

Interpretum Wrote:
This passage in 2 Peter is pretty intriguing:

"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." (2 Peter 3:10 ESV)

Now, the way it's translated here implies it might be spiritual, but who knows for certain? Maybe God does intend to actually dissolve the physical Universe and replace it. Either way, it's new heavens and new earth... so just as we talk about "New Jerusalem" as a reality, even though there's a lot of debate about precisely what it is... it's fair to say there WILL be a "New Earth".

Lest we forget the following promise, Interp:

(Genesis 8:21-22) . . .“Never again shall I call down evil upon the ground on man’s account, because the inclination of the heart of man is bad from his youth up; and never again shall I deal every living thing a blow just as I have done. 22 For all the days the earth continues, seed sowing and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night, will never cease.”


"What cannot be understood is no object of belief.” Isaac Newton.
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07-21-2011 04:43 PM
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smoldering wick
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Post: #59
RE: Why... Heaven?

Beau Wetini Wrote:
Sure, all those things you mentioned can be thought of and justified with the pressuposition that God can do anything and that there is nothing He cant do - but one factor you didnt mention in your above post, is GOD'S WILL.

It is HIS WILL that determines what He does and does not do -- and all manner of possibilities within this spectrum are fair game for God -- I am truly in no position to frame what God can and cannot do based on systems of logic, laws of physics and man's thousands of years of scientific observation. Does God truly need to abide by these things? I truly dont think He does.


And anyway --- what it seems you are essentially saying, is that if a Christian cannot use Reason, Logic and Evidence in the way they approach reality - then they cannot possibly arrive at the Truth.

Take Evolution. With Reason, Logic and Evidence one MUST arrive at the conclusion that Evolution (from single celled organisms to life's current complexity) is an absolute Truth. Right? So without Reason, Logic and Evidence, a person will NOT likely believe in Evolution, and will dangerously abandon right thinking and move towards the fallacy of direct creation by God, or some other rubbish like that.

In fact, with Reason, Logic and Evidence, we would all pretty much arrive at exactly the same conclusions as yourself, and those who also use these things - because by using these things, there can only be a certain possible number of outcomes in each respective facet of reality.

[/color]

Beau my boy, how I love your exuberance! But try to keep in mind that while God can do anything, He is limited (thankfully) to telling the truth:

God is not like people. He tells no lies.
He is not like humans. He doesn’t change his mind.
When he says something, he does it.
When he makes a promise, he keeps it. (Numbers 23:19 --GOD’S WORD Translation)

sw

PS. just an addendum to your "Reason, Logic and Evidence." Would it not be more logical to suppose that the godless "one MUST arrive at the conclusion that Evolution (from single celled organisms to life's current complexity) is an absolute Truth. Right?" I say this because the anti-god group invented the theory. All we did was buy it to make peace and establish common ground.


"What cannot be understood is no object of belief.” Isaac Newton.
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"The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false face for the urge to rule it.” H. L. Mencken
07-21-2011 05:05 PM
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Seraphim
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Post: #60
RE: Why... Heaven?

Its not really logical considering that millions of Christians have no problem with evolution.

07-21-2011 06:01 PM
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