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Bible Support
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Seraphim
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Post: #31
RE: Bible Support

Ill second what Malkah said. Your definitely welcome here Trying.

12-14-2010 08:52 AM
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TryingtToBuildYouUp
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Post: #32
RE: Bible Support

Thank you Malkah and seraphim for your comments.

I am interested in what other people believe too. There are many truths that i need to confirm for myself. Hence a lot of the things people have brought up i shall research when i get back home in February as I love looking deep into all things.

Hopefully people will keep on asking questions to get to the bottom of things.

I understand there can be resentment from people who were once JWs as there are strict bible guidelines that they adhere too. I found it hard just before i left over 13 years ago as it is hard work as worshiping Jehovah and bieng a follower of Jesus consumes your life a bit like it did for the apostles. What with Ministry and meetings and home bible study.

Now i enjoy it though and it is no longer a burden hence the reason why im on this board chatting with you guys.

I look forward to having some reasonable discussions with everyone.


Brotherly love

TryingToBeupbuilding

Malkah Wrote:
Hello TryingToBuildYouUp and a hearty welcome to the board.

I think the reason the WT comes either under fire or is, at least, focused upon in many discussions is because the vast majority of posters here have some connection with the WTBTS. Either they have left, are struggling to leave, have family members who are still JW's etc. Although our aim here is to simply be a place where Christians of all denominations can meet and discuss theology, we have to remember that most members have history with the WTBTS and its difficult to turn that history off, although many have suceeded in leaving the WTBTS behind.

I may actually be unique here, as I was never a JW, but rather Jewish, raised in Israel, who came to know Jesus in my early twenties. I became interested in the WTBTS when I did my M.Th. in contemporary Christian theology, and I got to know the folks here on another board and I consider many my dear friends.

People here run the gauntlet of beliefs from full WT to full evangelical with a LOT of variation in between. There are people who think the WTBTS is a satanic cult, others who believe them to have become corrupted, others who see them as fulfilling propecy, others who just think they're no better or worse than any other religious organisation. All views are acceptable provided they're put forth with respect.

This board is amazing in that trintarians speak with non-trintarians and non-tritarians speak to trinitarians without(usually) getting nasty. Out of all the JW/ex-JW boards I've visited, it's the only one that tries to look at all the sides of an argument. There's a great deal of respect for everyone here, even though our beliefs often don't match. It's not a church, its a discussion board so we don't have to agree. It can certainly be interesting here sometimes.

So join in. Hopefully, this board will one day be less WT focused and simply Christ focused. It took me a good bit of time to stop being Judaism focused, because that was what my life had been about until I met Jesus and started spending time with the Father. It was learning to rest in His presence that caused me to begin to stop looking back at where I'd come from, and forward to where I was going.

Take care XXXXX



TryingtToBuildYouUp Wrote:
Thank you gogh and bruised reed. I truly appreciate your comments.

Please would you enlighten me.

Everyone seems to be attacking JW views way more than any other religion on this forum. Is there a deep rooted special reason for that? I have noticed attack attack...ideas all over the forum.. would like to keep an open mind about everything on these boards but if everyone is set in attack mode then it is impossible to reason even with blatantly easy scriptures to understand. They seem to attack me over 1 word that is neither doctrinal or changes the interpretation of a bible doctrine i am talking about. But because i am a JW they attack it even though the attack makes no sense.
Like earlier it was because of my interpretation of John 17:3 - This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. They say taking in knowledge of god is different to those who come to know god. It is doctrinally the same. Ie:- means the same thing but JW alert went up and the needless disagreement happened.
I'm all for people with there own opinions but it seems a bit anti JW. Will keep at it in the forum but just wander why the anti JW thing?



Matt 22:37-39 ‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’
12-14-2010 11:30 AM
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Malkah
Ish Milchamah - Man of War


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Post: #33
RE: Bible Support

Hello TryingToBuildYouUp

Well, I'm not qualified to speak for the ex-JW's here, so I'll let them explain their circumstances - what I can tell you is that not one person I know left the JW's because of "strict bible guidelines" or because they found worshipping hard work - many left because they desired to seek God and follow his Son wherever He goes and couldn't do so within the WT any more than I could do when I was an orthodox Jew. There are many deep, wonderful stories of individuals encountering the Living God and their relationship with Him.

I am glad you don't find seeking God a burden - and i agree it is all consuming and wonderful, nothing else matters other than learning to hear His voice and follow wherever He leads. If He hadn't taken hold of me all those years ago I would be dead of anorexia now, I have no doubt. He is the absolute centre of my life. My husband and i pastor a church and a worship centre which is a twenty-four hour job, seven days a week - particularly ministering to all the people, but seeing lives healed and transformed and restored is greater than all the riches in the universe! Isn't it great to know that Jesus changes lives even today?


Please don't imply that people here left the WT because of hard work or strict guidelines. Such a thing is so far from the truth. The NGO, false prophecy, false teaching, child abuse, constant insulting of other Christians, belief they are "God's only channel" the mistranslations in the NWT (you'll find threads on all these if you want to comment) these are more likely the issues cited as some of the reasons for people leaving. Even though there are many here I do not agree with theologically, I absolutely respect their deep love of God and desire to do nothing other than serve Him. They're great people, get to know them; listen to their stories. There's not an "apostate" among them.



TryingtToBuildYouUp Wrote:
Thank you Malkah and seraphim for your comments.

I am interested in what other people believe too. There are many truths that i need to confirm for myself. Hence a lot of the things people have brought up i shall research when i get back home in February as I love looking deep into all things.

Hopefully people will keep on asking questions to get to the bottom of things.

I understand there can be resentment from people who were once JWs as there are strict bible guidelines that they adhere too. I found it hard just before i left over 13 years ago as it is hard work as worshiping Jehovah and bieng a follower of Jesus consumes your life a bit like it did for the apostles. What with Ministry and meetings and home bible study.

Now i enjoy it though and it is no longer a burden hence the reason why im on this board chatting with you guys.

I look forward to having some reasonable discussions with everyone.


Brotherly love

TryingToBeupbuilding


Adonai,
Ish Milchamah.
Adonai hu sh'mo.

Baruch HaShem, melech haOlam.

I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
-Mahatma Gandhi
12-14-2010 12:20 PM
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man hu
Babe and any other piggy names


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Post: #34
RE: Bible Support

Quote:
Hopefully, this board will one day be less WT focused and simply Christ focused. It took me a good bit of time to stop being Judaism focused, because that was what my life had been about until I met Jesus and started spending time with the Father. It was learning to rest in His presence that caused me to begin to stop looking back at where I'd come from, and forward to where I was going.


Thanks Malkah I so agree.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1sj2gQJIKI
12-14-2010 12:54 PM
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TryingtToBuildYouUp
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Post: #35
RE: Bible Support

false teaching? - Like what? Trinity? Hell? Paradise on Earth? The 144,000 ruling over things on earth with christ in heaven. The Fact that many Christians walk around with Gods holy name eradicated from the Holy Bible.

As for the mistranslations in the NWT - i have heard a lot of different ideas and read a lot of things about the New world translation being mistranslated. I have looked at a great deal of bibles KJB, NIV, Emphatic Diaglott, 1901, Emphasized to name a few. Jehovah's witnesses have used over 80 different bible in 100+ years.

The reality is that they are all 99% the same. Doctrinally they are identical except for passages where the role of Jehovah and Jesus gets mixed up. I used to have a go at peoples bibles for not having Jehovah's name in and misinterpreting John 1:1. But i don't anymore as that is such a single minded view and you have to be careful about thinking that you can only learn from certain bibles.

As for constant insulting of other Christians. I don't but i can understand there will be JWs who do. There will always be bad people in every religion.

As for prophecy's you are right they have got some very wrong as the apostles did they have been anticipating the end of the days for a long time now. They are anticipating the end soon and are looking forward to Jehovahs kingdom with Jesus as ruler. When Jerusalem was surrounded in 67ad by the romans the apostles would of thought that the destruction would happen then just as Jesus foretold so the Christians fled. It was 3 years later that Jerusalem fell. Even though it happened later than they thought jerusalem was destroyed. The end of this system will come on time.
1914 and the book of daniel has been explained by The bible students and JWs.

As for being gods only channel the apostles and the older men of the congregation were the governing body/Gods Channel in the first century. They acted as rule makers and were guided by holy spirit to support the congregations. The fact that the same method is used today should not surprise us especially when daniel foretold that the true knowledge would become abundant in the time of the end.

As for child abuse victims.:( I am appalled by it. It makes me physically sick just thinking about it. I admit there are cases of JWs abusing there children they are not taught to do that and i am afraid some elders would of dealt with it in a wrong way. It is appalling and has happened in every religion and im sure you would agree that we should always abhor such wicked behaviour.

Im sure people will of left for the reasons you mentioned and i can understand that they feel justified in doing so. The thing is there will always be stories like this in every religion not just JWs. Some witnesses drag Jehovahs name through the dirt. 99% dont. If 1% of witnesses do any of the things you mentioned thats a lot of bad things happening in the congregations.

I am truly sorry for any bad things that Jehovahs witnesses have done to people. It drags Jehovahs name in the dirt!

You cant tar us all with the same brush though!

I look forward to getting to know people on this forum!! :grouphug:


[/quote]


Such a thing is so far from the truth. The NGO, false prophecy, , child abuse, constant insulting of other Christians, belief they are "God's only channel" the mistranslations in the NWT (you'll find threads on all these if you want to comment) these are more likely the issues cited as some of the reasons for people leaving. Even though there are many here I do not agree with theologically, I absolutely respect their deep love of God and desire to do nothing other than serve Him. They're great people, get to know them; listen to their stories. There's not an "apostate" among them.


[/quote]
[/quote]


Matt 22:37-39 ‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’
12-14-2010 01:39 PM
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Mavos
The pluckiest Christian on the board.


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Post: #36
RE: Bible Support

TryingtToBuildYouUp, those of us who are Ex-Witnesses have all left for very different reasons.

Myself, I left because the Watchtower does not teach the Word of God correctly. They are false teachers, false prophets. They are not and were never God's people. That's why I left. I came face to face with the fact that what the Bible actually says, and what the WT claims it says are two very different ideas.

As far as the rules and strict life go, that was not why I left. The guidelines and rules in the bible must be followed of course. However, many of the Watchtower's guidelines are not biblical. They bind the consciences of people on things that the Word of God does not.

Others have left for other reasons. The main doctrine that caused me to leave was seeing the GOSPEL. The Watchtower does not teach the Gospel, the Good News. They never have. For them, the "Good News" is about the millennium and the kingdom and the Paradise. That's the gospel for them. In order to get there, you have to be part of and submit to the organization, follow God's laws and live a holy life, learn info about God, and preach to people. If you do all these things, then you might be recreated. (The WT doesn't teach resurrection but recreation).

Then I read PAUL. The Gospel is about Jesus Christ crucified and risen for sinners. The Good News is the you don't have to do anything to be saved. Jesus did everything. It's done already. All you are called to do is trust in and believe Him. That's the Gospel. Out of wonderful gratitude for the full and free pardon we have received already, we live in obedience, and that obedience isn't what saved us. If you follow the Watchtower's system of beliefs you will not be saved, because they never taught Christianity.

You have mentioned many teachings in your post. If you are interested in hearing what the historic, orthodox, and biblical Christian faith has to say on these matters, I am at your disposal.

Grace and peace to you,
Matt


"I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour." - John Newton
12-14-2010 02:22 PM
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ThinkingMan
Freeman in the Christ


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Post: #37
RE: Bible Support

hi TryingtToBuildYouUp.

My reason in brief for turning my back on the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is the teaching I began to hear more clearly which says to 'obey the elders without question'.

I highlighted in red the phrase which contradicts the above statement which the elders in my local congregation started to use.

Matthew 23:1-12 NWT Wrote:
1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying: 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore all the things they tell YOU, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but do not perform. 4 They bind up heavy loads and put them upon the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger. 5 All the works they do they do to be viewed by men; for they broaden the [scripture-containing] cases that they wear as safeguards, and enlarge the fringes [of their garments]. 6 They like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues, 7 and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men. 8 But YOU, do not YOU be called Rabbi, for one is YOUR teacher, whereas all YOU are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone YOUR father on earth, for one is YOUR Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for YOUR Leader is one, the Christ. 11 But the greatest one among YOU must be YOUR minister. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.


Jesus words are my law.

I hope this is helpful.

ThinkingMan


What happens to "common sense" when it becomes less common?
12-14-2010 05:58 PM
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TryingtToBuildYouUp
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Post: #38
RE: Bible Support

Are you sure that you don't have to do anything what does this mean?

Luke 13:24 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. - NIV

It says make every effort or ''exert yourself vigorously'' - NWT

2Tim 4:2 preach the word; be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. - ASV

It Says Preach, Be urgent

I could write a very long msg about instruction that we have been given and things we are urged to do. But i would be here all day. We are not instructed to do nothing!

That is not the gospel msg!

Sorry

Trying





''Then I read PAUL. The Gospel is about Jesus Christ crucified and risen for sinners. The Good News is the you don't have to do anything to be saved. Jesus did everything. It's done already. All you are called to do is trust in and believe Him. If you follow the Watchtower's system of beliefs you will not be saved, because they never taught Christianity''.


[/quote]


Matt 22:37-39 ‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’
12-14-2010 11:02 PM
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Mavos
The pluckiest Christian on the board.


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Post: #39
RE: Bible Support

TryingtToBuildYouUp Wrote:
Are you sure that you don't have to do anything what does this mean?

Luke 13:24 24 “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. - NIV

It says make every effort or ''exert yourself vigorously'' - NWT

2Tim 4:2 preach the word; be urgent in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. - ASV

It Says Preach, Be urgent

I could write a very long msg about instruction that we have been given and things we are urged to do. But i would be here all day. We are not instructed to do nothing!

That is not the gospel msg!

Sorry

Trying





''Then I read PAUL. The Gospel is about Jesus Christ crucified and risen for sinners. The Good News is the you don't have to do anything to be saved. Jesus did everything. It's done already. All you are called to do is trust in and believe Him. If you follow the Watchtower's system of beliefs you will not be saved, because they never taught Christianity''.

[/quote]

And thus it begins...

Listen... if this is going to be "Bible Ping-pong" or "Bible Tennis", I'm not interested.

What is Bible Tennis?

I make a claim.
You proof-text a verse you think says the opposite.
I give an explanation of the verse from the context of the entire passage
You ignore my explanation and the context and proof-text another verse.
I explain that one and tell you to deal with my first explanation
You ignore my explanation and the context and proof-text another verse.
Ad infinitum Ad nauseum.

If you are willing to deal with what the texts actually say in context, then I will have a discussion. You have to be willing to actually do exegesis of the text, and not import your own ideas into the text. You have to be willing to let the unclear passages be interpreted by the clearer passages that have the same context. You need to admit that the words of Paul are the words of Jesus as well. It's not about what you "feel" the text "means to me" but what the text meant to the author and his intended audience. You need to be willing to stay in context and not jump all over the bible like you're playing hop-scotch, then I'll have a discussion with you. If you are just interested in proof texting your position and not willing to let the text speak for itself, then I will not have a discussion with you.

Matt


"I remember two things: That I am a great sinner, and that Christ is a great Saviour." - John Newton
12-15-2010 12:43 PM
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e-magine
Disciple of Newness


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Post: #40
RE: Bible Support

...but Matt,, he's only, Trying To Build You Up!
Me thinks he has another agenda. :detective:


avatar:
Henry Ward Beecher-1872 Preacher of Plymouth Church, Brooklyn, in his home later bought by C.H. Russell.
He is looking at the Brooklyn Bridge,,,, is it the way into, or, out of Brooklyn for you?
12-15-2010 12:58 PM
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TryingtToBuildYouUp
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Post: #41
RE: Bible Support

When i have been having my bible study:read: with an elder and his wife. He encouraged me to ask as many questions:confused: as possible and keep asking them till i get an answer that i am happy with. Not to listen to just what the society teaches. He provided me with information and said make up my own mind. You are right there are elders who are not as humble as others and may abuse there power.

They are fellow slaves and not leaders and are appointed to help guide the congregation.:friends:Some are very approachable some may not be. They should be taking the lead with there deeds unlike the pharisees did.

In your case it sounds like they did not let you ask any questions and did not treat you like a fellow slave or brother. I am sorry this was the case. The thing is this does not mean that they are all like that. If i have the problem you had i will start a bible study:read: with them and see where we get with that.

We are all equal and should be allowed to express our view. We can all learn from each other.

Brotherly love

Trying





ThinkingMan Wrote:
hi TryingtToBuildYouUp.

My reason in brief for turning my back on the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is the teaching I began to hear more clearly which says to 'obey the elders without question'.

I highlighted in red the phrase which contradicts the above statement which the elders in my local congregation started to use.

Matthew 23:1-12 NWT Wrote:
1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying: 2 “The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the seat of Moses. 3 Therefore all the things they tell YOU, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds, for they say but do not perform. 4 They bind up heavy loads and put them upon the shoulders of men, but they themselves are not willing to budge them with their finger. 5 All the works they do they do to be viewed by men; for they broaden the [scripture-containing] cases that they wear as safeguards, and enlarge the fringes [of their garments]. 6 They like the most prominent place at evening meals and the front seats in the synagogues, 7 and the greetings in the marketplaces and to be called Rabbi by men. 8 But YOU, do not YOU be called Rabbi, for one is YOUR teacher, whereas all YOU are brothers. 9 Moreover, do not call anyone YOUR father on earth, for one is YOUR Father, the heavenly One. 10 Neither be called ‘leaders,’ for YOUR Leader is one, the Christ. 11 But the greatest one among YOU must be YOUR minister. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.


Jesus words are my law.

I hope this is helpful.

ThinkingMan


Matt 22:37-39 ‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’
12-16-2010 02:42 AM
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man hu
Babe and any other piggy names


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Post: #42
RE: Bible Support

TryingtToBuildYouUp Wrote:
When i have been having my bible study:read: with an elder and his wife. He encouraged me to ask as many questions:confused: as possible and keep asking them till i get an answer that i am happy with. Not to listen to just what the society teaches. He provided me with information and said make up my own mind. You are right there are elders who are not as humble as others and may abuse there power.

They are fellow slaves and not leaders and are appointed to help guide the congregation.:friends:Some are very approachable some may not be. They should be taking the lead with there deeds unlike the pharisees did.

In your case it sounds like they did not let you ask any questions and did not treat you like a fellow slave or brother. I am sorry this was the case. The thing is this does not mean that they are all like that. If i have the problem you had i will start a bible study:read: with them and see where we get with that.

We are all equal and should be allowed to express our view. We can all learn from each other.

Brotherly love

Trying

You seem to be continually getting the wrong end of the stick, Trying.
Many on this board have been elders, long term pioneers and bethelites. It was the GB itself which could not answer our questions, and it became apparent that our research and knowledge of languages was superior to theirs. When they were presented with these facts our findings were dismissed.

The rot is at the top, and that is why we left. We now have a direct relationship with our lord Jesus, making the GB defunct.

vicky

p.s. Why did you not name yourself 'TryingToBringYouBack'......... into the WT borg?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1sj2gQJIKI
12-16-2010 05:55 AM
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Bangalore
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Post: #43
RE: Bible Support

Welcome to the board, TryingtToBuildYouUp.


Warm Christian Love
Bangalore


"While producing people who were outwardly moral, they subverted the essential qualities of humility, compassion and mercy." - Raymond Franz
http://www.spiritualbrother.blogspot.com/
12-16-2010 01:37 PM
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